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22 comments

1 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 8:48:59am

Great. I can already see the headline: "Anti-Israel Rabbi defends Obama!"

2 bratwurst  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 10:07:20am

I am filing this one under "broken clock moments".

3 Buck  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 10:19:42am

It just seems to me that the same people who think that reasonable disagreement with Israel should not be characterised as antisemitism are not able to allow that reasonable disagreement with the President on the subject of Israel by Americans who wish Israel well should not be characterised as "insulting President Obama in a public forum" or disloyal to America.

4 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 10:57:43am

re: #1 Sergey Romanov

Great. I can already see the headline: "Anti-Israel Rabbi defends Obama!"

Yeah, considering he is totally anti-Zionist, this will be seen as "yet another reason to hate on Obama."

5 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 1:16:47pm

re: #3 Buck

It just seems to me that the same people who think that reasonable disagreement with Israel should not be characterised as antisemitism are not able to allow that reasonable disagreement with the President on the subject of Israel by Americans who wish Israel well should not be characterised as "insulting President Obama in a public forum" or disloyal to America.

What do you think she's referring to, Buck?

6 Buck  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 1:37:26pm

re: #5 Obdicut

When?

7 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 2:09:28pm

re: #6 Buck

When?

When she talks about people insulting Obama.

What do you think she's referring to?

8 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 2:45:11pm

re: #7 Obdicut

When she talks about people insulting Obama.

What do you think she's referring to?

Shhh. He's thinking.

9 Buck  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 5:49:30pm

re: #7 Obdicut

When she talks about people insulting Obama.

What do you think she's referring to?

Actually I was out for dinner.

I would suppose she is referring to Jews who she thinks make "unseemly attacks against the President of the United States".

I have no idea is she is thinking of anyone in particular.

10 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 6:13:45pm

re: #9 Buck

So how are you sure they didn't, if you have no clue who they are?

Why are you sure that they just have reasonable disagreements?

11 Buck  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 6:26:59pm

re: #10 Obdicut

So how are you sure they didn't, if you have no clue who they are?

Why are you sure that they just have reasonable disagreements?

I don't know what you are talking about. When did I make any comment on Babushka?

In my comment I didn't mention Babushka. I didn't quote Babushka.

12 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 6:31:29pm

re: #11 Buck

I didn't mention Babuskha either.

You claimed:

reasonable disagreement with the President on the subject of Israel by Americans who wish Israel well should not be characterised as "insulting President Obama in a public forum"

So you're saying that Satmar is characterizing reasonable disagreement with the president as insulting President Obama, right?

13 Buck  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 6:50:41pm

re: #12 Obdicut

So you're saying that Satmar is characterizing reasonable disagreement with the president as insulting President Obama, right?

Actually "insulted the President in the worse way". Satmar is characterizing reasonable disagreement with the president as insulting President Obama in the worse way.

Do I really have to to explain this? Did you really not understand?

recently self-appointed Jewish leaders have gotten up and insulted the President in the worse way.

I am pretty plugged in, and I don't know of any insult of the President in the worst way made by any american Jewish leader. I consider that comment to be an exaggerated description of the political opinion given by some Jews regarding Obama's approach to Israel.

It is probably the Orthodox Jews that attended a speech by Rick Perry back in September. However I know of nothing that could be characterised as insulting the President "in the worse way".

14 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 7:05:39pm

re: #13 Buck

Actually "insulted the President in the worse way". Satmar is characterizing reasonable disagreement with the president as insulting President Obama in the worse way.

So what are these reasonable disagreements that are being characterized this way?

I am pretty plugged in, and I don't know of any insult of the President in the worst way made by any american Jewish leader.

Oh, I see. Just an argument from personal authority. You're pretty plugged in. I see.

What about Geller and Shifren? Prager and Savage? Schlessinger and Kaufman?

15 Buck  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 7:14:27pm

re: #14 Obdicut

Oh, I see. Just an argument from personal authority.

Argument? I gave my opinion. Of course it was my personal opinion. I don't know what you are thinking that means.
I started the comment with "It just seems to me".

You have a problem with that? You really think that american Jews should refrain from criticizing Obama on the subject of Israel simply because the are "in exile" in America.

16 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 7:23:28pm

re: #15 Buck

You really think that american Jews should refrain from criticizing Obama on the subject of Israel simply because the are "in exile" in America.

Please find anything I've said that in any way amounts to that, Buck. You can't, because I haven't.

And again:

What about Geller and Shifren? Prager and Savage? Schlessinger and Kaufman?

Why dodge that question?

17 Buck  Sun, Dec 18, 2011 8:30:10pm

re: #16 Obdicut

I didn't say you did. I asked. There is a difference.

And I didn't dodge any question. Those are all Americans who disagree with the Obama administrations policy on Israel. I have no problem with them expressing that. I don't think it is an insult in the worst way.

However I also don't think that is who the Rebbe was discussing. If I know my Jewish sects, he more than likely does not go on the internet to read Atlas Shrugged, or even watch any TV.

If you really want to think that Geller is anyone to anyone in any community, that is fine with me. I certainly do not think so. I think the comment was meant for a much wider group than Geller. I think he meant ALL JEWS who are exiled in America. That he is anti Zionist, and does not want any American Jew to do anything except bless the Administration, no matter what they do, or say. This is a long standing Jewish tradition. One I disagree with. Even the Czar was worthy of a blessing.

While I have your attention: I think it was last month when discussing the anti assimilation ads from the State of Israel you remarked that as a Jew, you were offended at the stereotyping. I had never heard you say that you were Jewish before. I never really thought about it, except that you told us that you and your brothers had a very, very strange tradition where every year you stole your Christmas tree from your neighbor's land. It just seems to me that IF you are Jewish, and have a Christmas tree every year, that would be the sort of assimilation the State of Israel was fearing.

18 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:18:33am

re: #17 Buck

I didn't say you did. I asked. There is a difference.

Actually, no. You stated. That's why there's a period at the end of that sentence.

If you really want to think that Geller is anyone to anyone in any community, that is fine with me.

Geller is quite popular with a lot of people on the lunatic right, yes. Which you know.

I think the comment was meant for a much wider group than Geller.

So do I, that's why I included all those other names that you ignored. Why did you ignore them, Buck?

While I have your attention: I think it was last month when discussing the anti assimilation ads from the State of Israel you remarked that as a Jew, you were offended at the stereotyping. I had never heard you say that you were Jewish before. I never really thought about it, except that you told us that you and your brothers had a very, very strange tradition where every year you stole your Christmas tree from your neighbor's land. It just seems to me that IF you are Jewish, and have a Christmas tree every year, that would be the sort of assimilation the State of Israel was fearing.

First of all, 'offended at the stereotyping' was a joking response.

Second:

Holy shit, Buck, are you actually going there? Are you actually saying that Jews are defined religiously to you, not ethnically?

And if you've never heard me say I'm Jewish before, you haven't been actually paying much attention. Which explains a lot.

19 Buck  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:48:06am

re: #18 Obdicut

Geller is quite popular with a lot of people on the lunatic right, yes. Which you know.

Well maybe the lunatics, but not really a lot of people. I think she is less than a fringe. Yes she had her 15 minutes, but if people here were to ignore her, I would probably never see her again.

I didn't ignore ANYONE. I answered you.

Holy shit, Buck, are you actually going there? Are you actually saying that Jews are defined religiously to you, not ethnically?

No, but the ad campaign was about the loss of culture. One of the ads even specifically mentioned the Christmas tree in the house.

You can do whatever you want of course, but you can't be unaware that there are Jewish people who are concerned about that exact sort of assimilation. The fear comes from knowing history. You might disagree with that fear, but you can't be unaware of it.

You can do what ever you want, and "they" should be able to express their fear (constructively).

And if you've never heard me say I'm Jewish before, you haven't been actually paying much attention.

Well I may not stalk your every word, but that was the first time you said it while I was online and reading your posts. I am paying attention. Anyway, I was just politely clearing it up.

20 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:55:51am

re: #19 Buck

No, but the ad campaign was about the loss of culture. One of the ads even specifically mentioned the Christmas tree in the house.

So you're equating losing the Jewish religion to losing the Jewish culture?

You can do whatever you want of course, but you can't be unaware that there are Jewish people who are concerned about that exact sort of assimilation.

I'm not sure what you mean by that exact form of assimilation. You mean losing religion? Yes, most religious Jews are concerned by Jews losing their religion. That's not so much an assimilation thing, though, as an honest religious sentiment. Thinking otherwise is bafflingly cynical.

You can do what ever you want, and "they" should be able to express their fear (constructively).

Who was saying 'they' shouldn't be able to express their fear?

Did you just pull that out of nowhere?

Jewish culture is determined by Jews. It doesn't exist as a thing independently of Jews. It has its history to it, but it also has it's changes, year after year. It's not a moribund thing.

And that culture is certainly large and inclusive enough to deal with Jews who are Atheists or Christians.

If what you're referring to is the fear that nobody but Jews can really be trusted in the end and so 'assimilation'-- like making the United States your home-- is always dangerous because the US might turn against the Jews and kill them, that's a fear I can't treat with any level of respect. The US-- and other democracies-- are a place where minorities can fight for, and achieve, their rights and civil protections.

I also think Satmar is wrong in calling it exile, but that's his perspective. Seems pretty limiting to me.

21 Buck  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 10:42:55am

Look, I don't think you can define culture away. There are some things that are part of the Jewish Culture. Traditions that may or may not be thought of as exclusively religious. I understand how a Jew can convert, and their children might consider themselves ethnically Jewish.

However if a person is raised by two Catholic parents (for example) and celebrates Christmas (which can also only be as part of a tradition) along with the other Catholic traditions, I am not sure why you can't see the danger that the long term outcome will likely be a complete loss of Jewish identity. Even if genetically they are still Jewish, the Jewish identity (Culture, tradition, and yes religion) will be lost.

This is what happened recently in Nazi Germany. There were many Jews rounded out for extermination who didn't even know they were Jewish. Not because there was a sudden need to hide the fact, but because for generations they were assimilated.

So you're equating losing the Jewish religion to losing the Jewish culture?

I am saying that many Jews fear that losing the Jewish religion is a step towards losing the Jewish culture.

Who was saying 'they' shouldn't be able to express their fear?

Well, I am saying that opposing those ads is like saying that the fear should not be expressed.

but Jews can really be trusted in the end and so 'assimilation'-- like making the United States your home-- is always dangerous because the US might turn against the Jews and kill them, that's a fear I can't treat with any level of respect. The US-- and other democracies-- are a place where minorities can fight for, and achieve, their rights and civil protections.

I don't think I even inferred the "Jews can really be trusted in the end" part, BUT there is a long history of the host country "turn(ing) against the Jews". Going back 4000 years. It might seem unlikely to you. It might seem unbelievable to you. It always does. However (to unite the two threads) when Satmar says "It is provoking the nations to hate us and it brings danger upon Jews not only here but all over the globe" I think that is what he is talking about. Sit down and shut up. We are only guests here.

The State of Israel was making those ads because there is a fear, going back generations that assimilation leads to being wiped out.

Anyway, your parents being church going Catholics, and you describing yourself as ethnically Jewish.... must have been an interesting childhood. I would love to discuss it sometime, seriously.

22 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 11:35:38am

re: #21 Buck

Look, I don't think you can define culture away. There are some things that are part of the Jewish Culture. Traditions that may or may not be thought of as exclusively religious. I understand how a Jew can convert, and their children might consider themselves ethnically Jewish.

However if a person is raised by two Catholic parents (for example) and celebrates Christmas (which can also only be as part of a tradition) along with the other Catholic traditions, I am not sure why you can't see the danger that the long term outcome will likely be a complete loss of Jewish identity. Even if genetically they are still Jewish, the Jewish identity (Culture, tradition, and yes religion) will be lost.

What are you talking about? This is just, again, redefining culture in terms of religion. The only thing that will be lost there is the religion.

You don't think there's anything else to Jewish culture? Many of the most famous Jews of all time have been areligious or barely religious.

This is what happened recently in Nazi Germany. There were many Jews rounded out for extermination who didn't even know they were Jewish. Not because there was a sudden need to hide the fact, but because for generations they were assimilated.

Yes, on purpose. There were still plenty of other Jews in Germany who were never even found out, I'm sure, and other places, whose children these days think of themselves as German, French, British, etc. I'm not sure what the point of pointing that out is. If people want to assimilate, they're going to, you can't stop them.

I am saying that many Jews fear that losing the Jewish religion is a step towards losing the Jewish culture.

How do the 50% or so secular Israelis feel about that? Probably pisses them off a lot.

Well, I am saying that opposing those ads is like saying that the fear should not be expressed.

Should? How do you get that from anything I said?

Anyway, your parents being church going Catholics, and you describing yourself as ethnically Jewish... must have been an interesting childhood. I would love to discuss it sometime, seriously.

Not with you, ever. I don't have the slightest shred of respect for you, intellectually or morally. After you used my experience as a victim of childhood abuse to try to launch a creepy attack on me, you violated any possible trust I might ever have in you as a human being.


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